God is faith

I really hate this term, and has likely been the biggest turn off to organized religion that has ever crossed my path for consideration. Here is just another example of such errancy .

Hetman writes:

No one ever said [evolution and creationism] could not coexist. They just cannot coexist in science class. Just like alchemy and chemistry cannot coexist in science class. God is faith based. Evolution is based fact.

I respond:

I think it is a little more like comic books are not legitimate reading material for an English class.

Science takes faith too, the faith that we are seeing and understanding things in the same way. It is a philosophy, a method for all of us to look at the world in the same way. By your definition, science is just easier. Where the hell did you get that impression?

Religious faith is based on an exploitation of the human necessity for truth, and tries to give people an easy way out to look at the world. They give you little books with simple stories to memorize, and you are done! True philosophy is a commitment to constantly working towards better understanding.

In theory, organized religion could be a pathway towards understanding, but instead it the infomercial diet pill of the mind.

If you could understand this, you would get why evolution is not a FACT, it is a THEORY.

I think some people are just looking for different thins in the world. Some people see it as something small that if they could just understand it, then they can control it and live out the perfect life. I think some of these people also see things as "if it works, it must be right". The problem with this is is the limitations of our own self observation. So many questions have been asked for centuries about 'what is truth?' and 'how do we measure it?'. There have been models for truth through out history. We still look to classical Greek texts to see how in many ways we have not changed. Our children are not born knowing or understanding more about our universe than civilizations of long ago.

But as new theories, models of understanding, have been tested and evolved over this time, we have perfected to the best of our ability, a path to true understanding and communicating about our world.

Wikipedia, on the Scientific Method, opens with:

[This theory] refers to bodies of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

I would argue that this has been the goal of philosophy throughout history. "Bodies of techniques" is what is specific about the scientific method, while the rest is philosophy. Religion falls into the realm of philosophy, and by this definition, I am sure any theist could argue that by this definition, religion plays this role for people's lives, while science only refers to "stuff" and "things" that their god put here. This keeps science outside the scope of being able to say anything new, different, or conflicting with reality, well, their reality.

What this quote plainly takes out of context is what those bodies of techniques that are integral to understanding the difference between "science" and just "any other philosophy". This is the foundation where we decide what we are going to accept as truth, and what we regard as ideas and speculation. This model illustrates it well, from the sciencebuddies.org web site:

The last step that is not included (because this is a guide for students doing science fair projects) is that the results must be independently verified. Further, and this is the real kicker, the independent results must match as exactly as possible. In general, any hole in a theory breaks it, when such conflict can be verified through an independent study, particularly when such studies come up with better models that more accurately relate a phenomenon. Then further there is the whole difference between causation and correlation. It takes more than seeing two things together to say that one thing causes another, but that is a bit more complicated.

So what does this mean really? I think it means that we either have to accept or reject it as a foundation for absolute truths. It doesn't mean that things that aren't proven by science are false, it just means that they aren't proven as true... by the same token, science can prove that things are NOT true, but it does not mean that things that can not be proven to be false are true.

So in every way I have ever been able to look at things, the bible is just a book. It Is like any other book, there are good books, and there are bad books. Good ones not worth reading, and bad ones worth reading too. Personally, I think there are a lot of other better books worth reading. Unless you just want to know what all the hype is about, go ahead, but i'll just say it is a pretty bad book not worth reading. I am far from saying this simply because it is old it is somehow out dated, it is out dated for many other reasons that would require a close analysis of the text, which is not what I am going to go into at this moment.

Well, to be honest, the old testement is entertaining as insight to what primitive humans undertsoof about the world. It is worth reading from that perspective. The sequel on the other hand has the taste of Uwe Bolle and Michael Moore.

Now I can reconize that I am not taking into account all the impact that "the new testement" has had on history, as many kids today can't appreciate the impact of Birth of a Nation or Citizen Kane had on film, I have lost interest as many kids today will have difficulty appreciating Star Wars in the face of so many fanatics getting in their face telling them how it is the greatest movie ever, and making it out to be so much more than it really is, the latter being more relevant in this case for me, but knowing that the former is a big issue for many people I know that have ever had to endure going to an orthodox church.

More I just don't get...

hufflepuff17 writes:

God and Evolution cannot "Co-exist" because saying God used evolution to create everything is belittling his sovereign power and it being a miracle. We will never be able to wrap our minds around God or how he does things because we cannot conceive perfection or infinite power. So don't try and put God into a box so we can think we understand how he does things because we never will. Evolution is just our way of trying to put the creation story into a box and not letting it be what it really is, which is a miracle.

My reply:

"Evolution is just our way of trying to put the creation story into a box and not letting it be what it really is, which is a miracle."

It is really interesting you would say that because I would not hesitate to say exactly the opposite, that the wonderful place that is our world with all of its things to study and observe, the bible tries to take all that greatness and put into a small box by taking out of context some ancient story of privative human understanding of the universe and trying to say that is exactly the way things must be because it has been accepted for thousands of years.

I WILL agree I put the bible into a box (more like a can to be exact) by limiting my perspective to seeing it as just another book. Why not actually look at the history of the text you revere so greatly. No Star Wars fan boy calls another any less of a "believer" just because they acknowledge that George Lucas's wife may have had a really big role in the original trilogy. The Bible is a collection of stories kept by ancient people and their understanding of the world. Good stuff, very interesting, but why are you taking it apart to be something it is not? What an insult to the PEOPLE that took the time to put and keep it together.

I just know there is something here with these people that I am NEVER going to understand. My only comfort is that this belief does something for them that makes their lives either happier, or more stable. But it still makes me sad.

Warning, Jesus got involved. Some adult content was inspired by and included in this email.

YesJesusYes writes:

Hello Homosexual.

Do you want to know why we so successful in passing Proposition 8? Because of YOU! (Thank you!!) How much money did you contribute to the "vote no on prop 8!" campaign? Probably zilch, based on the pitiful amount of money that was raised to counter our pro-family advertising. How many "vote No!" rallies did you go to? Based on the pathetic number of anti-8 rallies (and even more pathetic number of participants at them), you probably didn't go to a single one, did you? In fact, if just one fifth of all homosexuals in California would have given $50 to the "vote no!" campaign, you would have outspent our "yes!" campaign by millions. If just one tenth of homosexuals in California, who claim to be so against this proposition, had actually protested or rallied, there would have been hundreds of thousands protesting in the streets of California. Hahahahaha! I saw about 20 protesters. This leaves me with one simple conclusion: YOU DON'T CARE! You pretend to care, but you don't! Why else would the vast majority of you and all your homo California friends do absolutely NOTHING?! Oh, sure, there are a few random die-hard homosexuals who gather in little 50 to 100 person rallies to "stand up" for your homosexual agenda, but the rest of you, MILLIONS of you, don't give a rat's ASS about your "equal" rights!

I'll let you in on a little secret: My church has known for YEARS that the homosexual community is apathetic, unorganized, and unmotivated. (Except when it comes to your parties and disgusting gay parades) Why do you think my pastor gets away with preaching anti-homosexual, pro-family messages on regular basis? It's because he knows you people won't do anything and simply don't care! You're all too hung over to show up and protest at our church on Sunday mornings, because all you do is party and do drugs. Does that offend you? Well truth hurts.

Actually, I have to take that back. I can't give you ALL the credit for passing proposition 8. If I did that, I would be ignoring the tens of millions of dollars and countless hours of organized effort ME and my church put in to passing it. I do have to pat myself on the back a little. You see, I've given 10% of everything I make to my church EVERY month. Do you know how much money that is? (It's thousands and thousands of dollars a year.) Do you have any idea how many of me and my friends/family give thousands and thousands of dollars to our anti-homosexual churches each and every month? (millions and millions a year.) Our churches are organized and have every bit as much money as we need to defeat homosexuals each and every time a proposition or constitutional amendment comes up for vote. That's why gay people are losing their rights all over this country! Did you know 30 states have now passed (by VOTE!) constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage? Hmm….it sure sounds like we're winning to me!

Good luck changing this country with your youtube posts and angry emails. While you sit on your ass at your computer, I'll be rallying with my fellow anti-homosexual Christians, raising money to continue taking away you and your homosexual friends' rights. And every time I see one of your pathetic rally of 20 or 30 homosexuals huttled together on a street corner, first I'm going to laugh, then I'm going to think of you and wonder if you're a) partying, or b) sitting on your ass in front of your computer. Then I'll laugh again.

YesJesusYes

My reply:

1) I will totally agree we are having way more fun than you. Personally though, I don't do drugs.

2) I am married to a woman, and ban on gay marriage doesn't stop my wife or I from having as much sex as either one of us with either men or woman. It is really great to be attractive, just fyi.

3) If 10% of your income amounts to "thousands" of dollars a year, I am sorry. But thank you for yet another example of how it is easier to get money from poor people than rich people; it is why they are poor!

4) You only make ten * thousands of dollars a year, and rather than saving for a college fund, let alone move to a nice neighborhood, buying better food, keeping a nicer house, tutor for your kids to get better grades, you give that money to some fly by night group that calls themselves a religion? I love this "fuck the dead sea scrolls, we got words on gold" joke. It would only be funnier if I was the one getting the money, which leads to...

5) The church (members, pastors, whatever) loves gay bashing, and going to protests while good little mommy bakes cookies for their good little Mormon husbands. But he who works hard has to play hard. Do you have any idea how many blow jobs I have gotten from really nervous "homophobic" Mormon in their 20's? I have many gay friends and every one of them has a sugar daddy. And you know who helps make this happen? People like you! Guys that are attractive and out of the closet are self empowered, have no repressed homosexual feelings, and have nothing to hide. They are also choosey. That is no fun. On the other hand, you get one of these homophobic, church going, perfect husband types and start talking about how uptight woman can be sometimes, and it is amazing how quickly the conversation will turn to "why can't women be more like men?", to "have you ever tried?" to "I wonder what it is like?", to "Would it be ok i I sucked your cock, I'm not gay! But don't tell anyone / my wife. She would be all weird about it." These guys always think they are soo original. But it is too funny how virgins think so hard and are all confused and stuff to always come up with the same answer. I just smile, and tell them "I understand sure you can suck on my cock a bit, and don't worry, you can fondle my balls too".

6) It doesn't matter. Unless you believe your own propaganda, nothing is going to change. Teachers can teach about love all they want, male male, male female, female female, whatever. And I don't know if you have paid any attention to the national issue, but this whole prop 8 thing has got every kid in every school talking about gay marriage. I thought that was what you were trying to stop, and you call your little temporary restraining order a win? YOU and your church made homosexuality the biggest issue in this country after the election, and after that, you successfully changed the minds of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and the Governator against prop 8 and pro gay marriage. The only "victory" you got was pandering to the poorerst and least educated and told them all kinds of horror stories... only to get 52% of the vote. HA HA HA!!! You do know WHY the supreme court has never heard the ban on gay marriage issue? Cause they have already said that it is a CLEAR violation of equal protection, and separation of church and state. With California finally taking the ranks to get a ban on gay marriage, this will mean the supreme court is going to actually address the issue directly. While you go to church and whine about all the fun the gays are having, and how they must be the reason why your marriage sucks, or whatever else poor people do, some of us actually pay attention to what is going on with regard to the law, and follow what the supreme court does, and how they think. Something my friends laugh about every once in awhile with regard to "apathy" is how few people actually know the supreme court addresses more than one or two case a year. So until the bill is signed into law, anyone planning to get married still can, and nobody married now will loose their marriage licenses at all. Its called contract law and de facto segregation. Do you have any idea how the this system of government works at all, or do you only know how to spread the lies and get people to sign petitions to "save the children"?

7) Well, despite this email obviously being targeted to a mass audience, and my name merely being on a list with (I am sure I could name a few) others, Any other implications I have already blogged about, and if you care to read / comment, I would love to have more to share and laugh about with my friends. http://nakedpenguins.org

And last but not least, thanks for giving me something to write about. I have been a bit busy partying and loving life recently, but not having too much to blog about, ant this was inspiring. Who would have thought I would be so influential as to get on your list. I feel so special.

And don't forget that the whole church is a lie, that they cheat you with a smile on their face, there is no god, and when you die you will have gone from a whole fake life of servitude to an imaginary superhero just to make someone else rich. There is no heaven. You had one life and you just wasted it on nothing. "And it would be funny if it just wasn't so sad".

And now we are both laughing. What a great world we live in that two people can make each other so happy, despite our differences.

Have a nice life, and keep on reaching for that rainbow, or planet, or whatever your adorable little fan club dies.

Keith

I love youtube!

How to convert an Atheist into believing there MIGHT be a god.

I never believed in God. And I really tried, but it never took While from a young age, I searched many historical / religious text, I never found anything I could really believe in, other than science textbooks. It just made the most sense. If you can call 'Spinoza's God' (Pantheism) a God, then all science text books to me are the manifestations of the glory of God as He inspires us to study His Universe. The one thing I did get from Church ever as a kid was that God was Truth. It really made sense to me, and I ended up believing that with all my heart. So science is the study of truth, and truth is God, then I must conclude that if that is true, then the Bible is pure evil.

But what about the possibility that this is not mutually exclusive with the possibility that The bible is true, different from being truth? The principles of the Bible are true, with regard to the things that we can confirm are true, and despite that some parts are absolutely false, it statistically possible that some of the parts we can't necessarily prove not true, are.

For example, how about if the bible was written by God, and that part of the stories were true. Lucifer was cast from heaven, and became the Bible. He represents all of the lies, super concentrated, and people not only read them, they believe in order to spread evil about the Earth. Let's say Jesus was Satan's fictional character that he played, but the event didn't actually happen. Satan made it all up, but of course it would have to sound all nice, like there was a God or Heaven or such lies, while we see such things as patently not true. You see, there are all these twists and confusions to trick you into believing that truth is just too hard to look for, when it isn't, and that then it presents you with an easy all-in-one convenient story that just gives you all the answers. The Devil teases you like this, trying to keep you from seeing God's glory while you got your nose stuck in a book. The book even warns you about it. Worshiping false idols. Again, this relationship between what is false and what is true.

And again I conclude that the Bible must be false when the truth is all around us, cause remember that God is with us. He can hear our prayers, and grant them. The freedom and power to discover truth, and "the truth will set you free", removing the binds that allowed what was concerning us in our prayers to become resolved.

So, God it real, and He put the Bible on this planet in his way that if understood, such as we could understand the falsehoods in his own story, then you were truly a master, and you will get into heaven when you die, otherwise you just become dirt, and die like you THINK Atheists die. But as the miracle of science shows, matter makes up everything, and your matter will become part of another lifeform, and get yet another chance to get into heaven.

All you have to do is read, and the understand that the Bible is a divine story in which it predicts its own falsehood.

So Atheists are right, and there is a God, and if you understood him, he would never want to believing in such silly non-sense.

Prop 8 is SOOO GAY!

I have not been pro 8 at any point, but I feel so strongly about it, I feel had begun to feel ignorant, not understanding how ANYONE with any sense of good inside of them could support this measure to change our constitution.

Oh, and to double check, does it seriously need a 50%+ vote to pass? or is it 66% like the US Constitution?

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/138/2/210

A good article on how the APA resolved the matter. I interpret the last line as to mean that heterosexuals hold certain values about their heterosexuality that conflict with homosexuality.

The funniest thing I see about this is that the church seems to find homosexuality WAY more normal than I do, or much anyone else I know.

What I hear from no on 8 people is that gay is normal for some people, that is just the way they are, and I am different.

The Yes on 8 people say that everyone really wants to be gay and that if people learn about being gay or that being gay is ok, everyone will become gay, and nobody will take care of their families or children or society because being gay is just too wonderful, but the human species will die out!

And even if there was some chance of that being true, is the idea of continuing the species, or heterosexual intercourse, or the opposite gender so detestable to you you need a law to make sure everyone else has to suffer as much as you sacrifice on a regular basis?

Can I just stop for a moment and say... WTF!?!?!?!??

Of course there is always the possibility that this is just the most politically correct way of saying they REALLY like sex,and know what a pain they can be in relationships such that if men can get their pleasure from other men, they will never get laid again.

The more I think about it, the yes on 8 people must have the biggest homo fantasy EVER about the world and the way people work. In a way... it is kinda hot.

It is like as if being hetro is some kind of struggle to make the world a better place, to which I just go HUH?!?

I have been with men and women. I appreciate them each in their own way, but discovered I am VERY straight. It even hurts some times because I believed it was all programming and that everyone in a natural environment was bisexual... and I felt SOOO enlightened... but alas it took me no time at all to realize I was hopelessly straight. I think the biggest part is smell. Guys are gross, and the scent of a woman drives me CrAzY!

I guess being heterosexual is just natural for me.

So again I ask, where the hell are these people coming from, if not of a place of deeply repressed homosexuality?

How about for a poster: "Sorry boys, it isn't as gay as you think. No on Prop 8!"